Where do I start learning for a large orchestration??

[Conor]

Hi, everyone, I'm new to this forum, with a specific question.

For a while I have been interested in nightclub design, but am overwhelmed. I have been working in fashion for several years, as a photographer and now also as a designer with a small business.

My personal interest in a nightclub is as an interactive museum, but with far fewer social boundaries -- an adult playground. I am really interested in Parisian nightlife in the late 19th century (i.e. Moulin Rouge), and the 80's Club Kids. "Avant-garde" exhibits today often allow you to explore something new, but this exploration to me always feels so stifled to me by the museum setting. This limits the energy of the experience, both in boundaries with the pieces, and boundaries with the other patrons -- shouldn't an erotic exhibit, for example, generate an energy that changes the interaction of the people in it, the way kids laugh on a swing-set?

I am gay, and interested in the metropolitan gay demographic, which I see (especially in 25+ range, within certain niches) as more receptive to the unusual. I do not want to create a place just to dance and drink, but also a place where sexual boundaries and other taboos strictly set in our world can be explored and defined personally by the individual, encouraged by the environment. I want to design experiences that people aren't familiar with, so they are freed from the temptation of taking prescribed roles and can be spontaneous for a night, or a minute. This is about building surreal experiences - often less about creating an aesthetic external fantasy, and more about encouraging one internally through behavior.

That said, I am a very specific and exacting artist , and I know that lighting design, interior design, architecture, performance art, costume design, group psychology, and music would play very important roles in my current vision of this idealized club, to make the experience. To keep it running, I imagine very strong legal definition and protection are vital (freedom must have some boundaries), as well as strong business skills. Plus, a strong security team is a major concern.

The question -- I'm 20 y/o, currently without a degree, and have plenty of years to build up to something like this. Where the hell do I start -- what studies or internships, etc, just to start moving towards such a broad orchestration? And is there anyone out there who does stuff like this? I am way more interested in the "pop" public than in museum-goers, and I definitely want to draw a crowd that loves Lady Gaga and partying (as I do). This is about pure release, and mostly high energy, that's why it has to be a nightclub, which I see as the best place to experience fashion-type art.

I'm not asking if this vision is possible -- it can and will be tweaked in the years to come, and some variation on this has to be doable. I want to know if anyone might offer thoughts on where to start.

Thanks for reading all of this, and thanks so much in advance to anyone who responds -- I know NOTHING about this industry and am grateful for any candid advice!

[ministry]

conor, ya gotta start at the bottom. get a job at a club and learn the biz. you have time on your side.

as far as your vision goes, ya better make sure it's legal to do what ya wanna do. i kind of read between the lines and not sure it is. i'm all for free love and whatnot but i'm not sure the cops are. also it doesn't matter what you like, it is what the public likes.

also i would not give away everything that you are thinking about to the world here. people may steal a few of your ideas ( me included ). i'll answer any questions that you have.

[BARTENDER 54]

DOESN'T THIS TYPE OF ESTABLISHMENT ALREADY EXIST... IN THE BAY CALLED SAN FRANSICO ??? I THINK ITS CALLED A BATH HOUSE...
I DON'T KNOW...I'M JUST THINKIN'.

LATER,
Ric

[HYDDYN MAVURIK]

Hi, everyone, I'm new to this forum, with a specific question.

For a while I have been interested in nightclub design, but am overwhelmed. I have been working in fashion for several years, as a photographer and now also as a designer with a small business.

My personal interest in a nightclub is as an interactive museum, but with far fewer social boundaries -- an adult playground. I am really interested in Parisian nightlife in the late 19th century (i.e. Moulin Rouge), and the 80's Club Kids. "Avant-garde" exhibits today often allow you to explore something new, but this exploration to me always feels so stifled to me by the museum setting. This limits the energy of the experience, both in boundaries with the pieces, and boundaries with the other patrons -- shouldn't an erotic exhibit, for example, generate an energy that changes the interaction of the people in it, the way kids laugh on a swing-set?

I am gay, and interested in the metropolitan gay demographic, which I see (especially in 25+ range, within certain niches) as more receptive to the unusual.

I do not want to create a place just to dance and drink, but also a place where sexual boundaries and other taboos strictly set in our world can be explored and defined personally by the individual, encouraged by the environment.

I want to design experiences that people aren't familiar with, so they are freed from the temptation of taking prescribed roles and can be spontaneous for a night, or a minute.

This is about building surreal experiences - often less about creating an aesthetic external fantasy, and more about encouraging one internally through behavior.

That said, I am a very specific and exacting artist , and I know that lighting design, interior design, architecture, performance art, costume design, group psychology, and music would play very important roles in my current vision of this idealized club, to make the experience.

To keep it running, I imagine very strong legal definition and protection are vital (freedom must have some boundaries), as well as strong business skills. Plus, a strong security team is a major concern.

The question -- I'm 20 y/o, currently without a degree, and have plenty of years to build up to something like this. Where the hell do I start -- what studies or internships, etc, just to start moving towards such a broad orchestration? And is there anyone out there who does stuff like this? I am way more interested in the "pop" public than in museum-goers, and I definitely want to draw a crowd that loves Lady Gaga and partying (as I do). This is about pure release, and mostly high energy, that's why it has to be a nightclub, which I see as the best place to experience fashion-type art.

I'm not asking if this vision is possible -- it can and will be tweaked in the years to come, and some variation on this has to be doable. I want to know if anyone might offer thoughts on where to start.

Thanks for reading all of this, and thanks so much in advance to anyone who responds -- I know NOTHING about this industry and am grateful for any candid advice!



Well, Conor...

I think that you have really challenging idea. I think that everyone has a vision. But DOGGLAM IT!!! Reading your vision of an ideal gay mecca...it makes me shake my head and reinforces my resolve never to own a club.

These are my issues with it.

One: Cliche. If I want a Moulin Rouge-like experience...I will go to Vegas and see Cirque Du Soleil's ZUMANITY.

One point five: Another cliche. A nightclub that isn't about dancing and drinking. Should I guess? Drugs and sex. :eek: I think that is another cliche. Unoriginal yet predictable idea. Legally...you are sooo totally asking for legal troubles...it isn't even funny.

Two: Disjunctivity. Everyone has different sexualities and sexual foci. What makes you think that everyone's sexual menus are the quintessential buffet for everyone? And to sponsor a venue with that in mind?

Three: Lack of responsibility. Do you really think that you want to be responsible for someone getting hurt or exploited at your club with these sexual experiments and freedoms? Do you NOT realize the repercussions and responsibilities for what will happen at your club?



There are distinctions of fantasy and reality. There are reasons why fantasy is fantasy. And why reality is reality. Fantasy...you can have what you want.
Reality...you can't have everything you want. Everything you want in real life is not always good for you.

[Conor]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the replies - I didn't realize anyone had replied and I hadn't come back to the page yet.

ministry - as for starting at the bottom, would go-go dancing be a decent place to start? I've been thinking about trying at that job for a couple years and haven't had the balls to do it. It's not the most "respectable" position, according to peers, but I'm really tired of living my life for everyone else. Plus, I'm starting to believe that a passion for free creativity and an adherence to social norms really are irreconcilable differences, somewhere down the road. I'd love to talk to you more about some of this - go ahead and steal ideas, I've been thinking of them for too many years and they keep coming as long as I don't let taboos scare me.

Ric - yes, you're right, it's like a bathhouse -- but a bathhouse is a specific type of setting. I'm thinking variations on rules of a bathhouse, but could be any type of establishment. I think people make a mistake in considering sexuality as one experience. It's an entire drive and perspective that can be contextualized in so many ways. Sex is a consistent and common strong primal drive like hunger whose public relevance varies according to demographic. And it's accepted as sane to open up a Chinese restaurant next to a Mexican -- even though in that location, hunger as an incentive is already covered. What if the only restaurants available were fast food, just like the only establishment I'm talking about is in bathhouse form? The market can support more, and even more than that as taboos are eased (which the media is always doing, a reflection that it's what many markets already want). I'm not talking about anything unethical or illegal - just taboo. The lines are all tangled up now.

Mavurik - you're totally right, this could get WAY out of hand - that's why I would need strong legal council, and a lot of careful thought, not just about what could be done, but what shouldn't be done. In my opinion, the ethical sex industry is completely under-explored. The fact that it's all lumped together and avoided by the public is strange to me - I'm not talking about prostitution - I'm talking about opened boundaries for consensual activity. Many club-goers couple at home after visiting a club to satisfy that drive anyway, so why not offer more of it in house? Many guys I know (myself often included) go out to clubs with clear intent to find a partner for the night, or just for part of the night.

In my opinion, much of the fashion industry (not to mention smaller sections of the entire media) today is a subsection of the sex industry anyway. Isn't that how we sell many products -- erotic excitement? Those are the print versions of the experiences I'm considering, and fashion labels never get tired of finding ways to change it up in fragrance ads. They do their best to sell the intangible through a so-called (marketing) "experience" until you're scented with romantic erotica. Why not sell some version of the actual experience also? Again in response to Ric, guess I'm thinking more "interactive Madonna concert" than bathhouse.

[HYDDYN MAVURIK]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the replies - I didn't realize anyone had replied and I hadn't come back to the page yet.

ministry - as for starting at the bottom, would go-go dancing be a decent place to start? I've been thinking about trying at that job for a couple years and haven't had the balls to do it. It's not the most "respectable" position, according to peers, but I'm really tired of living my life for everyone else. Plus, I'm starting to believe that a passion for free creativity and an adherence to social norms really are irreconcilable differences, somewhere down the road. I'd love to talk to you more about some of this - go ahead and steal ideas, I've been thinking of them for too many years and they keep coming as long as I don't let taboos scare me.

There is nothing wrong with freedom and creativity...but you have real life logic, too. You have rules. Put all your creative ideas on paper and in detail. WITHOUT CENSURE.
Wait a week. Then, go through that list one-by-one. And come up with lots of reasons why each example wouldn't work. Then, you go through each reason and strategize how you can INDEED make that point work for your situation.


Ric - yes, you're right, it's like a bathhouse -- but a bathhouse is a specific type of setting. I'm thinking variations on rules of a bathhouse, but could be any type of establishment. I think people make a mistake in considering sexuality as one experience. It's an entire drive and perspective that can be contextualized in so many ways. Sex is a consistent and common strong primal drive like hunger whose public relevance varies according to demographic.

Conor...in real life--I wouldn't want to go to an establishment where people are having sex 'a la bathhouse'. But that doesn't mean that people won't go.
I think that there are public health issues. There are privacy issues. (Who is to say that people aren't going to be exploited? Think about that. There are technologies: cellphone cameras...FLIP Ultra camcorders...digital cameras. Are people going to feel that safe being in your bathhouse club being exploited by others with the availability of these peripherals?)

And it's accepted as sane to open up a Chinese restaurant next to a Mexican -- even though in that location, hunger as an incentive is already covered. What if the only restaurants available were fast food, just like the only establishment I'm talking about is in bathhouse form?

Variations on a business model: A bathhouse that isn't a bathhouse but a different manifestation of a bathhouse. :)

The market can support more, and even more than that as taboos are eased (which the media is always doing, a reflection that it's what many markets already want). I'm not talking about anything unethical or illegal - just taboo. The lines are all tangled up now.

Make sure you clearly define what is taboo. Otherwise, it is an abstraction.

Mavurik - you're totally right, this could get WAY out of hand - that's why I would need strong legal council, and a lot of careful thought, not just about what could be done, but what shouldn't be done. In my opinion, the ethical sex industry is completely under-explored.

There is nothing ethical about sex and sexual desire. Think about that. The fact that it's all lumped together and avoided by the public is strange to me - I'm not talking about prostitution - I'm talking about opened boundaries for consensual activity.

Do you really believe that people aren't open and consensual in their homes? In hotel rooms? So that they will think...I need to go to your establishment to find affinity and consensuality?

Many club-goers couple at home after visiting a club to satisfy that drive anyway, so why not offer more of it in house?
Because, sex is a private matter. Everyone has sex and sexual desires. Everybody doesn't want to see them in action. I know that I don't.

Many guys I know (myself often included) go out to clubs with clear intent to find a partner for the night, or just for part of the night.

Because you create a place of open and consensual sex...doesn't mean that everyone is going to get laid at your establishment. And if they are...do you think people are going to come there to watch them get laid?



In my opinion, much of the fashion industry (not to mention smaller sections of the entire media) today is a subsection of the sex industry anyway. Isn't that how we sell many products -- erotic excitement? Those are the print versions of the experiences I'm considering, and fashion labels never get tired of finding ways to change it up in fragrance ads.

I like that Charlize Theron commercial for Christian Dior J'ADORE parfum where she is stripping her accessorial baubles and DIOR gown in some Provincial/ Baroque mansion talking about wanting her J'ADORE parfum. :D I can't take serious. It is hilarious to me. Who wants to get laid by Charlize Theron in a Baroquely decorated mansion when you got a good bathhouse? :D They do their best to sell the intangible through a so-called (marketing) "experience" until you're scented with romantic erotica. Why not sell some version of the actual experience also? Again in response to Ric, guess I'm thinking more "interactive Madonna concert" than bathhouse.


Make sure you get Madonna's approval, then.