Chicago Nightclub stampede

[Andrew]

Tragic news

21 dead in Chicago nightclub stampede; police cite 'mass chaos,' some exits locked

Refer http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20030217-0950-clubdeaths.html

[jbrett]

A true tragady, which must hit home hard to a lot of us, I got the news via text message today and was stunned. It shows how vunerable we are as people who work in clubs or as people who go to clubs.

I had a club gassed by someone who we threw out, but lucky no one was seriously hurt.

[Andrew]

Early reports speculate on possible breaches of Capacity numbers, breaches of Fire regulations and PANIC.

The panic issue is the real tough one as it was aggravated by people trying to breath.

[Club Security]

Truly tragic!

In San Diego, one week before the Super Bowl, a club owner contacted me to train 5 clubs they owned in the use of chemical agents and hand held tasers. The owner and the several GM’s were extremely concerned by the possibility of huge violent crowds, mostly Oakland Raider fans, coming into their clubs and causing trouble.

I advised them to never use any form of chemical agent for the exact reason that caused the tragedy in Chicago. True, the club in Chicago had other capacity and fire ordinance issues, but the spark was the use of either old-fashioned MACE or the newer OC spray.

Club owners and GM’s, stop the use of any form of chemical agents right now. Adding additional security can usually offset any possible need of chemical agents.

Nightclub Security Consultants

[David]

Speaking of things that cause a panic.

How many of you have fire extinguishers within easy reach of your staff and customers? I'd bet that most of you do. You know, it is the law.

Well, we had a packed house one night and some idiot decided to set one off at about Midnight. Here's what he did. He took one of those rubber band type pony tail thingies and fastened it to the handle and compressed it. Then he attached the rubber band so that it held the handle down. The extinguisher released it's total contents into the club. This was about a month after 9/11. It filled the club with a lot of chemical. At first, the crowd thought that it was some kind of new effect that we came up with. Then, some idiot yelled out "Anthrax" "Poison Gas" and the whole club cleared out. Lucky for us, we has enough exits to handle a mass exodus. When the police and the fire departments arrived, we had the guy arrested for Inciting a Riot and almost sued him over lost revenues.

We moved the extinguishers to different locations so that this couldn't happen again.

I was in another club one night when one of the Doormen sprayed a customer with pepper spray. Take my advice, don't let anyone use pepper spray in your club. This too cleared the club and it stunk for weeks.

[happybaboon]

Weapons in clubs is surely a simply retarded idea.

I live in a country where police officers don't carry guns under anything but extreme circumstances, and where they've only just begun issuing pepper/capsicum spray to officers in the last five years... And we have shit all in the way of crimes involving firearms here - and I think that that policy is the reason.

Issuing weaponary to people - Security at clubs, police officers or whoever - only encourages criminals to get similar or better weaponary and to use it.

If there are violent people in your club, don't give your security weapons which will encourage them to be violent and attract violent people with weapons into your club, rather, figure out why your club is so dangerous and fix the problem, or at very least hire more security.

That way, people won't die in stampedes.

It sounds like the stampede was caused by security using capsicum spray on two women fighting... And it sounds like what fire doors there were were locked.

[Q-Systems]

What a tragedy.

E2 was a customer of Q-Systems; they used our Q-Bar POS. They appeared to struggle at times as many nightclubs have in the last years but always had a positive outlook.

There were too many people in the building! The downstairs capacity is 327 with furniture and more exits available. The capacity of the upstairs could not have been more than 400-500.

Q-Systems sell a technology as described in past post that keeps accurate count of how many people occupy a room. Would this have helped? Only the operator's judgment to not exceed capacity would have avoided this situation.

The technology to count occupancy is available, but without the ethics of the nightclub operators to use it, the technology is obsolete.

My condolences,

Richard Berg

[jbrett]

I know it's a little off topic, but last year somone was trown out ofmy club, and get the rear of the club on fire, the flames blocking one fire escape.

The club filled up with smoke very quickly and myself and the door security evacuated people. I was amazed how hard it was, I have worked within clubs and bars for 10 years now.

While many people left as soon as they saw a problem, and the alarms were going and the Security was pointing out exits, some people refused to leave becasue they had just got drinks. Even after explaining we just wanted them to leave they cold take there drinks they were still refusing to leave.

I was the last person who works there out of that burning building, after my security staff, making sure every one of our customers was out safe. I was very ill for 3 weeks after becasue of the smoke and things, most of the time was removng these people who wouldn't leave,by force in some cases.

In the case I had, there could have been some serious acidents or deaths, casued not by the fire, but the people who refused to leave. Lucky the fire crew got the fire in time and only caused a little bit of damage, and the fire didn't spread.

I was proud of my staff who reacted very well under the sistuation of the fire, I was very disheartened about my customers.




Originally posted by David
Speaking of things that cause a panic.

How many of you have fire extinguishers within easy reach of your staff and customers? I'd bet that most of you do. You know, it is the law.

Well, we had a packed house one night and some idiot decided to set one off at about Midnight. Here's what he did. He took one of those rubber band type pony tail thingies and fastened it to the handle and compressed it. Then he attached the rubber band so that it held the handle down. The extinguisher released it's total contents into the club. This was about a month after 9/11. It filled the club with a lot of chemical. At first, the crowd thought that it was some kind of new effect that we came up with. Then, some idiot yelled out "Anthrax" "Poison Gas" and the whole club cleared out. Lucky for us, we has enough exits to handle a mass exodus. When the police and the fire departments arrived, we had the guy arrested for Inciting a Riot and almost sued him over lost revenues.

We moved the extinguishers to different locations so that this couldn't happen again.

I was in another club one night when one of the Doormen sprayed a customer with pepper spray. Take my advice, don't let anyone use pepper spray in your club. This too cleared the club and it stunk for weeks.

[jbrett]

As people who work in clubs and bars all over the world, lets use this tragedy in a positive way and use it to remind us of the dangers of locked, blocked or broken exits, and the dangers of wepons.

Lets all use these deaths to make sure that no more happen anywhere for a similar incident. Lets learn.



Originally posted by happybaboon
Weapons in clubs is surely a simply retarded idea.

I live in a country where police officers don't carry guns under anything but extreme circumstances, and where they've only just begun issuing pepper/capsicum spray to officers in the last five years... And we have shit all in the way of crimes involving firearms here - and I think that that policy is the reason.

Issuing weaponary to people - Security at clubs, police officers or whoever - only encourages criminals to get similar or better weaponary and to use it.

If there are violent people in your club, don't give your security weapons which will encourage them to be violent and attract violent people with weapons into your club, rather, figure out why your club is so dangerous and fix the problem, or at very least hire more security.

That way, people won't die in stampedes.

It sounds like the stampede was caused by security using capsicum spray on two women fighting... And it sounds like what fire doors there were were locked.

[Barman]

I manage at a venue in Chicago's South Loop. We're only 17 blocks from Epitome. The tragic events have caused me to re-evaluate the procedures and policies that we have at our place. I will definitely be re-inforcing the stuff that is right and works and reworking what needs to be improved.

It is not clear what exactly happened at E2, but I have read and heard that the owners had a promoter using the place that fateful night and that the promoter brought in his own security. If that's true, that's a really stupid thing to allow someone to do in your name. On top of that you have the violations of blocked exits and being over capacity. Bad mix.

Legal and required exits, trained and adequate security staff, attention to occupancy and generally looking out for the safety of the people and staff are key.

[Andrew]

How do you simulate a Fire Drill in a crowded situation? You can't have that many mates (rent a crowd?) and you can't use your patrons...

[Barman]

Good question. Believe me, there have been crowds that I thought were good to use in training staff in preventing over-serving, or throwing people out en masse.

But, fire drills? We have a Fire Department person coming in soon to go over our evacuation procedures with us and we will videotape it for the future, but I think think that when bad stuff actually happens, what you fall back on is part training and the rest is having made sure the exits are marked and clear and the push bars are working on locked doors and that staff knows where the exits (and fire extinguishers - if that's the case) are and what their roles are.

What do you others think?

[Q-Systems]

Barman,

How would you feel about having system that accurately reports to you how many people are in you venue at any given time and giving access to this information to fire department or police department?

Looking for feedback from owner/operators.

Thanks

Richard Berg



Originally posted by Barman
I manage at a venue in Chicago's South Loop. We're only 17 blocks from Epitome. The tragic events have caused me to re-evaluate the procedures and policies that we have at our place. I will definitely be re-inforcing the stuff that is right and works and reworking what needs to be improved.

It is not clear what exactly happened at E2, but I have read and heard that the owners had a promoter using the place that fateful night and that the promoter brought in his own security. If that's true, that's a really stupid thing to allow someone to do in your name. On top of that you have the violations of blocked exits and being over capacity. Bad mix.

Legal and required exits, trained and adequate security staff, attention to occupancy and generally looking out for the safety of the people and staff are key.

[Barman]

Hi,

Actually we have a reliable system, but thanks anyway.

[Q-Systems]

Barman,

I'm not trying to sell you anything (yet). I'm wondering what you have that would allow the Fire department to know you are accurately monitoring your capacity besides a security staff with 2 clickers whom hopefully can count and doesn't get distracted or has to go to the bathroom.

Thanks,

Richard Berg

[Club Security]

Hi Guys,

A lot of thoughts are coming from everyone. Keep it up and don’t be shy if you have a thought or something to say about the Chicago incident. It all helps someone.

Let me address a couple of things. First, the comment about weapons being used in a club.

As an active police officer and a security consultant I totally agree with not using and not having weapons in any club. Having weapons won’t attract additional weapons to the club however, but what does happen is what possibly happened in Chicago. When security members have OC spray, batons, tasers or whatever they will tend to rely on them instead of their wit, their conversation ability and their tact. As a last resort they will use one of the listed weapons instead of just grabbing the unruly patron with three or four other security members, arresting the person and removing them from the club. I have never seen any weapon have a positive impact on a nightclub or bar.

Second…Customer counts.

Every employee, not just the security manager or club GM, should know the building or room capacity. If all know what the maximum allowable is they can advise others when areas are getting busier, packed or two crowded for the servers to move and work. Using whatever method to keep an accurate count is absolutely necessary. An electronic or manual counter will work. They just have to be used. As mentioned by Richard, management has to follow the correct guidelines or the counting method, any counting method, will never work. Management MUST make a stand and let all employees know that they are going to follow the rules. That job of being diligent with your crowd is real hard to do when you have 100 customers standing in line with 10 or 20 dollars to spend just to get in!

Third… Fire drills.

You don’t need a crowd to conduct a fire drill or practice what you would do. I gave an interview today to the Chicago Tribune and we talked about this very thing. I teach and preach role-play games for all incidents. Be it a fight, removing customers, dealing with drunks or fire drills, training and practice are the keys. In this area, as with counts, management must make it clear to all employees that this type of training is mandatory and stick to it. All law enforcement agencies across the country use role-play to build a pattern or memory of what to do in a time of crisis. The term “muscle memory” is a term normally used when you talk of sports training. It can and will work for your club.

Here is a typical roll play event that could be held at any club. Have ALL employees in attendance, servers, bartenders, security, management and owners. The employees must see management and owners present so they really feel that this is something the boss wants and buy into the training. Set the rooms you use exactly the way they would be with customers. Keep the house lights up for the practice runs. Don’t use music or dance floor lights during the practice runs. We will use a pretend fire for our drill. Have everyone walk to an exit together. See what obstacles you encounter…tables, stools, doors or stairs. Deal with those obstacles and think what is best. Talk as a group and make a plan. Remember, you aren’t just walking to the door in normal conditions; you are walking to the door in a fire! Think and remember the route. Now do it again. It will go faster and smoother. Now think about making teams of employees with specific jobs in case of a fire. Jobs like furniture movement to open walkways up wider, turning the lights up and the music off, opening all exit doors, talking to and assisting with the removal of customers, whatever. Give each team of employees assignments and have them go back to their normal stations for another walk through. Now hit the pretend alarm and walk through it again with everyone doing his or her jobs. Mistakes will be made. Do it again. It will get smoother and faster. Change teams if necessary. Refine the exits and pathways. Now, turn up the music and do it again. When your good at that, turn down the lights and leave the music up and do it again.

Write everything down. Keep a record of this training and the jobs of employees. Conduct this drill monthly or whenever several newer employees come on board. Practice, practice and more practice. Security can work on removing people or on dealing with a drunk passed out on the bar. Make up scenarios and role-play with your employees.

This tool really works and has worked for several clubs around the country.

Good luck,

Nightclub Security Consultants