Advice please...One of those dreaded nights

[der_totentanz]

Alright first of all I come from the IT industry. I have managerial experience in that industry, but I consider the core of management experience to be a transferable skillset. I have been a bar manager in a nightclub for the past year. I also bartend to have less staff since I or the owner would have to be on premises at all times. This is a new business and it has only been open a year.

On Saturday night...which is largely a very regular crowd we were quite busy. We had a lot of street traffic come in, which is great. However there were some people that just....I dunno....after doing this for a little while, you read people. These two guys looking out of place, just had that look. So I am watching them to the best of my ability, while tending the bar, changing kegs, etc. Well they come up and order a round of drinks from me and I even took extra time to make sure they wanted a fuzzy navel not a hairy navel (I thought I was looking out for the customer, so he gets what he wants and the bar, to avoid a 'spill'). So I make all the drinks and I tell him the price. He starts complaining, saying that the other bartender was charging much less (obviously undercharging, maybe). I explain to him that she is undercharging and was even going to cut 4 bucks off the round and explain that the next round would be regular price, he didn't let me finish and he demands that since she was undercharging he should pay the same price. I tell him that I cannot do that, he asks to talk to manager. I explain that I am the manager and he starts getting a bit rude...but whatever. He gives me the money and he didn't give me enough, so I ask for the correct amount. He gives it to me and as I turn to the register he throws a glass at me. The bouncer at the bar is oblivious to this and I go and tell him that this guy needs to leave now. The bouncer asks which one (this next part is important later on) I am point and getting ready to explain which person exactly, before I could explain who he is, the bouncer says "the guy in the white shirt". I tell him, "Yes he needs to go now), the bouncer responds with "Why?" WRONG WRONG WRONG So they guy sees me talking to the bouncer and starts slamming all the drinks I made...NO....I get over there and take the drinks away that were still on the bar. BAMN, the guy punches me in the face from across the bar. I jump over the well and onto the bar. I do not think the guy expected me to react like this and he is backing up. I jump down to the other side of the bar and all of sudden he get tackled (FINALLY) by the bouncer and customers start restraining me. So they get the guy out and I get let go. Obviously I am quite charged. The owner is nowhere to be found, so I leave out the back to cool off, have a smoke. The back door has no outside lock, so I walk around to the front (approx. 1 city block). There was a good amount of people out front, so as I am walking in, I see the bouncer talking with these two guys right in front of the entryway. First off, I definitely didn't expect them to stick around nor did I expect the security to allow them to remain in front of the entry way. They see me and come after me, the two security that are there basically try and hold them back, but they get close enough them to make contact again. So a fight breaks out, it finally does get broken up. I go inside and the owner is bartending. I ask him, if he called the police. He responds with "Why would I call the police?" I am like, "cause I just got assaulted" He says, "You can call the police if you want". SO I call the police. Of course now the perpetrators are long gone. The police get there, I explain to them what happened, they get a police report, I ask the security if they knew who they were, they both say no. I explain to the police, I do not know their names and I understand there isn't much that can be done, but I wanted a report filed anyway. At this point I am getting furious about how the security failed and that the owner totally didn't have my back. So I am asking some regular customers if they saw anything, some of them saw it all, so saw parts, etc. Got names and all that info. One of them who speaks Spanish, was outside when security was talking with these guys. She heard bouncer that at the bar, tell the guy "...It's OK...we go back a long time..." and was seen shaking their hands. I snap at this point and I talk to the owner, he acts very blase about it, uninterested and unconcearned. So I quit right then and there. BTW...I was there 6 months befor we opened assisting with design, buildouts, renovation, etc.. So I have been there since the very beginning and that makes it a year half there. I mean I really care about this place.

In addition...since we opened I have yet to recieve a pay check or any pay other than tips when I bartend. I have yet to be compensated for the time I spend doing inventory, liquor orders, recieving, interviewing, firing, auditing the tills and doors every night, getting supplies, fixing cbles in the attic. All I have gotten is empty promises, excuses and procrastination when the pay subject comes up. So now I am without a job, injured (a broken foot, nasty scrapes, bruises, neck and back pain) with no health insurance. No workmans comp, cause I haven't gotten paid. Since I haven't gotten paid I cannot file for Unemployment. I am broke other than the tips I made on saturday night.

Now that you know the situation. Here are my questions:

What is average salary/rate for an honest hard working bar manager?

What can or should I do about this?

Thank you
(name withheld for obvious reasons)

[der_totentanz]

I feel as if security failed...twice from the door to the bar, it failed. Am I wrong? And it failed as to getting them out and looking out for staff and customers? Again am I wrong?

Now jumping over the bar may have not been the right thing to do, but I just got punched in the face and drink thrown at me, I really didn't know what he would do next. There were potential weapons on the bar right in front of him (glasses, beer bottles, a cash register <I know...I know, I do not like it on the bar either, but my idea got vetoed>). In situations like this you have a microsecond to analyse and react, the type of person I am, I would rather make a decision and have it be wrong than not make any decision and let some crazy violent drunk get the initiative. I felt in the best interest of my staff (the other tender and the bar back) customers and my personal safty sometime had to be done. The bouncer was acting like he didn't want to deal with it. SO I really feel I made the right decision, the cops agreed with me. So I dunno? But since the way all the staff reacted, I feel like I made the wrong decision. Thoughts?

[Andrew]

at the point where you say:

"He starts complaining, saying that the other bartender was charging much less (obviously undercharging, maybe)" I would ask what they paid for them, charge that amount, smile and make sure they left the service area "happy".

Then I would IMMEDIATELY take the matter of the undercharging bartender up with that bartender and the *owner*. You may want to alert security that there is potential for trouble.

And don't work for free unless you have a significant financial investment in the place. If you undervalue yourself, others will too.

I hope things pick up for you..

[der_totentanz]

Originally posted by Andrew
at the point where you say:

"He starts complaining, saying that the other bartender was charging much less (obviously undercharging, maybe)" I would ask what they paid for them, charge that amount, smile and make sure they left the service area "happy".

Then I would IMMEDIATELY take the matter of the undercharging bartender up with that bartender and the *owner*. You may want to alert security that there is potential for trouble.

And don't work for free unless you have a significant financial investment in the place. If you undervalue yourself, others will too.

I hope things pick up for you..

Well I did speak with the other bartender (who I have watched quite closely for some time). She doesn't undercharge. Basically this guy made a call with me which he wasn't doing with her. Well and HW is cheaper than Stoli and Chambord, which is what was asked for. The way I would manage the bar, the customer isn't always right. Because when I have to pick a side, I believe good employees need to have their back covered by me. Even in that case I was willing to take a dollar per drink off the total tab, I consider that a good compromise. The bar doesn't take a big hit, the cost was reduced but he didn't want that. In addition we were slammed and he didn't wait more than 30 seconds for me to get his order and verify. When I bartend, I take a lot of pride in it, even when busy. The drinks are neat, consistant and made quickly. Granted when you are really busy, QC does suffer but I try and minimize that and find a balance between speed and quality.

As far as the pay thing...you should trust your boss, so what do you do when things that are promised never happen and you need that job? Look for one...I have...it is a bit tough.

I do thank you for your insight. I have done a lot of customer service and in a lot of other situations that may have been the right thing to do. But I also think that I was being more than considerate of customer needs and prepared to offer a compromise.

I also thank you for the words of encouragement. The situation is resolved. Although, I will not be there anymore. Even still I feel bad about it, not because I am not working there, but because it will be a mess for a while and that will hurt a place I care about. Sometimes, you do just have to walk away. Even since that is the case, I still think the owner needs to do the right thing? Am I off my keel?

-Eric

[Club Security]

Hello All,

Eric, first, security did fail. Absolutely. They knew the jerk at the bar and are lying about not knowing him. Simple. I have seen this exact thing many times before. Because they didn't want to act again says that they knew him. The fact they were hanging out front talking says they knew him.

If your story is true and I have no reason to doubt it, the owner doesn't care about you, the customers or the other employees. The response "Call the police if you want to" says it all.

You have a couple of choices.

Your first choice....Forget about it and move on. Learn from the mistakes and vow that you will not let yourself get in that position again.

Your second choice....Sue the bar, the owner and the security guard in question about the incident surrounding the assault on you. Customers and employees have a right to be safe in the club. Once the owner hires someone for security and calls the person security, the owner is taking huge responsibility for keeping a safe environment for all in the club.

Law suits are sometimes very ugly. You need to consult an attoney and stop talking about the case to anyone.... even on this message board.

Can you tell me what city your are in?

Good luck,

Robert
Nightclub Security Consultants

[Baudtender]

Robert - your heart's in the right place, but don't jump on this one.

Read between the lines - they speak volumes.

Wish I could write more now. I will, I promise.

This is a lawsuit troll, and I'll give him no comfort.

Baudtender

[der_totentanz]

Originally posted by Baudtender
Robert - your heart's in the right place, but don't jump on this one.

Read between the lines - they speak volumes.

Wish I could write more now. I will, I promise.

This is a lawsuit troll, and I'll give him no comfort.

Baudtender

Easy there cowboy. Do not make assumptions. You do not know me. If I was as you put it a "lawsuit troll" I would have gone to hospital. But again, I so fatally loyal, that I want him to give him the opportunity to pay my medical bills, which happed while I was working for him and on his property. Because if I go to hospital now, they will ask lots of questions. Why is there no workmans comp? do you see how this situation can go from bad to horrible. This is exactly what I want to avoid. So I am still looking out for this guy, risking further damage to myself. I do have pictures, damn straight I do and witness lists. But that is common sense....C.Y.A.. Personally, the owner was a close close friend. Even though at this point I have a lot of comtempt for him, the last thing I want to do is sue or blow a whistle. So please befor you haze me...try and understand what kind of person I am.

-Eric

[Andrew]

.. and remember that the Nightclub and Bar environment is mostly everything the I.T. "scene" isn't.

The club world has lots of smoke and mirrors

[der_totentanz]

Originally posted by Andrew
.. and remember that the Nightclub and Bar environment is mostly everything the I.T. "scene" isn't.

The club world has lots of smoke and mirrors

That goes without saying. I figued that b4 we even opened. But you wanna talk about sneaky and insidious, the IT industry can be very brutal. In my experience, that is the way things are everywhere, just the modis operandi is different.

-Eric

[David]

This will probably get a little more heated before it's all over. I only ask that everyone that comments refrain from putting the guy down. Just do as he asks and state what you would do and if you have advice.

I, wouldn't have let it go this far. I would have said that the other Bartender had probably been busy and didn't charge the correct amount. If he still complained, it would be his time to leave. I don't put up with any crap from anyone. We are there to provide a service in a safe and hospitable environment. I have let people in that I felt could be trouble. I have watched them closely like you did. I also let the Doormen know how I felt and had them watch them a little more closely. The ruse that he used on you is older then I am.

I can't believe that you worked for this unscrupulous operator for so long. I don't know if I would sue him at this time though. I would get with the Labor Relations Board and explain your situation. Hopefully you kept track of the hours that you worked? Better yet, do you have the past schedules with your name on them and the hours that you worked. As for your injuries, you will be covered by Workman's Comp. You were employed by him at the time of your assault. The Police Report will document that. If you need any more help or advice, PM me and I'll walk you through it.

In hindsight:

This should be a lesson to all of you that read and post on this board. Trust no one to a point and document your hours and what job you are performing during those hours. Never and I mean never, take your eyes off of or turn your back on a disgruntled customer. You are only giving them the window of opportunity that they are looking for.

[ministry]

eric, i have been in the club biz for about 16 years and have seen just about everything ( including your thing). i would have charged the lesser amount ( a couple of bucks in the big scheme of things does not matter) and confirmed with the girl bartender to see if she made a mistake, it does happen. when the guy threw the glass and the security guy would not take care of it call the police to handle it ! if you are that busy and only have one guy on then you need more help. keep an eye on the guys till the police arrive. then once the guys are out, fire the bouncer for questioning your call. my policy is if a manager,bartender, waitress needs someone out then they are out, no questions then and we will discuss it after the night is over. no one customer will put you out of business so don't worry about making a mistake. as for you jumping the bar, keep it under control ! you are the manager and are supposed to have the coolest head in the place.
you are better of without the place if they are not even going to pay you( what were you thinking) tell him you want you back pay or you will take him to court. good luck. mike

[der_totentanz]

Originally posted by ministry
eric, i have been in the club biz for about 16 years and have seen just about everything ( including your thing). i would have charged the lesser amount ( a couple of bucks in the big scheme of things does not matter) and confirmed with the girl bartender to see if she made a mistake, it does happen. when the guy threw the glass and the security guy would not take care of it call the police to handle it ! if you are that busy and only have one guy on then you need more help. keep an eye on the guys till the police arrive. then once the guys are out, fire the bouncer for questioning your call. my policy is if a manager,bartender, waitress needs someone out then they are out, no questions then and we will discuss it after the night is over. no one customer will put you out of business so don't worry about making a mistake. as for you jumping the bar, keep it under control ! you are the manager and are supposed to have the coolest head in the place.
you are better of without the place if they are not even going to pay you( what were you thinking) tell him you want you back pay or you will take him to court. good luck. mike

The way I look at it is, I am going to charge 3 bucks for chambord and stoli raz. No way, I know the other bartender didn't sell that for 3 bucks. I don't know if this guy is trying to slick willy himself a drink at a very cheap price. And there were 5 drinks. I was willing to compromise and dicount it. Now as far as me getting involved if something isn't getting done, it becomes my responsibility. At that point I had already been assualted twice, there are bottles other glassware close by, I wasn't going to give him the chance to assualt someone else or give him enough time to pull a weapon and use it on my staff or a customer. At that point when someone assualts some one, you cannot anticipate what their next action will be. No one else was doing anything. And I agree with a alot of what you said. I just want you to understand my perception as things happend. No one else did anything, so I will step to whatever I feel needs to be done as the manager.

As far as the pay thing...I was promised and repromised that it was going to happen and I would compensated. But after a year... I was really starting to question the reality of it happening. But I need a job and if I just left, that wouldn't help me get what is owed to me. Plus as I said I am quite loyal. I mean I could paid myself off...but I never did that and I never would.

But yea I think it is best that I am not in a situation where people don't get paid and appreciated. I am not the only one.

This just feels very wrong, when I was only one who did anything with this situation, no one had my back and I don't get paid, that I have to be the one leaving.

-Eric
-Eric
-Eric

[Andrew]

Eric, I am not implying that people in this industry are 'sneaky and insidious', instead they are sorta, well...tricky, I suppose.

The way I see it is that you come in contact with more streetwise night-time-people in clubs who may not have experienced as much trust when compared to day-time-people with stable routines (such as in I.T.) Plus you encounter more extremes of personalities.

They size each other up in different ways.

I try to NEVER forget that all club patrons that are non regulars and/or not known to me personally, have to be considered trigger-happy until proven to me otherwise. A bit like when you are a driver; it's a good idea to treat the other drivers with the same caution as if they were crazy.

It's a smart move to make better friends of any Security team; they have complimentary skills and some are excellent people h andlers.

Eric, take your excellent work-ethic to where you are truly respected.

Armed with the knowledge from this unfortunate experience, you can bring wisdom with you to your next venture.

[Baudtender]

I think I'll practice some restraint and let David's cooler head
and sage advise prevail. I wanted to come back with a rested
mind and re-read the story before commenting further, and I'm
still bothered by many things I see as red flags in the narrative.

See, what bugs me about these sort of posts is that we know
we're only getting half the story. I've fired people straight out
that who could have written the same sort of post, given their
point of skew. Truth - well, that's a rare commodity when people
start desiring compensation for their "troubles."

So, here's my questions for the original author:

1) If you were professional and courteous about explaining the
correct prices and the customer became abusive, that was the
time to ask them to go, right? So why didn't that happen?

2) Why do you feel it's inappropriate for your security staff to
ask "why?" when you want someone removed? Unless you're
expecting them to be a Brute Squad that has no concern for their
own personal safety, the more they know about the situation,
the better they can defuse it. Why? Because he threw a glass
at me. Good enough. Why? Because he's got a gun under his
jacket and threatened to kill me - well, I'd deal with that a whole
lot differently and would like to know that information before I
approached them, if I were working Security. Wouldn't you?

3) Why, when you had a security man on the same side of the
bar as the problem customer(s), did you feel the need to take
the provocative action of grabbing drinks away from them? If
you would have stood back and let security deal with them, you
may have avoided the fight altogether. Was your primary goal
to keep order and get them out as quietly as possible, or did you
lose your temper and escalate the situation?

4) Why, oh why, would you ever jump over your bar? Why did
you get within arm's reach of a hot-under-the-collar customer
when you have security there? Even after being popped in the
head, you should have gone to a neutral corner and had them
restrained and the cops called (if that's what you wanted to do.)
Jumping over the bar created a second event where you became
the aggressor, and could have put unwilling innocents in danger.
The fact that customers were restraining you doesn't look very
good, does it? Jumping over a bar is not self-defense, nor did it
protect other customers. A half-assed lawyer would have a field
day with this.

5) I'm not going to even point out the wisdom of leaving your
building alone after such an event. Consider it the First Rule
Of Survival in this business - you don't go outside alone. Ever.

6) You've been working at this bar as a manager for an entire
year without pay? That's probably what - 26 pay periods of
"empty promises, excuses and procrastination" and NOW you're
getting irritated? If this night wouldn't have happened, how many
more pay periods would you have worked without pay? Were
you perhaps being paid under the table fully cognizant that such
an arrangement didn't include unemployment or workers comp
protection? Did you declare your bartending tips to the IRS? Did
you commit income tax fraud?

There are my questions. To be fair, you asked a couple. Here are
my answers:

>> What is average salary/rate for an honest hard working bar
>> manager?

Apparently, pretty cheap where you worked. Right? It's a little
late to negotiate a salary.

>> What can or should I do about this?

You already did it - now learn from it.

I'm exasperated by this and posts like it. Think I'll respectfully
bow out of this thread and start a house rule about joining in
any similar ones in the future.

Baudtender

[Club Security]

Hello All,

Baudtender... You are so right... there are always two sides to every story... ALWAYS! I know, you have dealt with these sort of issues before, so don't sweat...this guy had better learn from his mistakes.

But...whatever you do.... don't create a new house rule to never get involved with these type of posts. You have a ton of knowledge and insight.... keep giving it to people.

Have a good one everyone.... Stay Safe!

Robert
Nightclub Security Consultants

[Andrew]

Baudtender, your opinion on everything here is always a pleasure to read and I always look forward to your input.

I'm with Robert!