What would a club bouncer do if ...

[ErictheEnt]

This is a hypothetical question, a debate a friend and I are having. If there is a bouncer that could answer this question for me, or someone who knows with certainty what one would likely do in this situation, please let me know.

SCENE:

Its a Saturday night at a club. Everything is typical and then a man starts running towards the exit like he is being chased and has a serious (and honest) look of fright and terror on his face. There are two large bouncers at the door and yells to them on the way out "That man stole my wallet and he's trying to attack me, help!" and flees like a frightened child. The two bouncers see a second Man (who doesn't look nice, but is smaller than both bouncers) giving chase.

Now are the bouncers going to stop the man or are they going to, in hopes to get both men the hell out of the club, step aside and let the man go?

I feel the bouncers would at least stop him to question him. Another opinion is that the bouncers job is to get the a-holes out of the club and would move to help him out faster. What would they do?

Thanks,

Eric

[David]

I was a Doorman for several years and still do the dastardly deed from time to time. If I saw anyone running for the door, I would stop them and anyone following them to see what the problem is. This way, you have both parties involved and can get both sides of the story. It wouldn't matter what color their skin was or who they were.

They both could have just committed a crime against one of the other customers. They could have robbed the club. Or, anything that is humanly possible. They could also just be playing around too.

So, who wins the bet? I'd bet that it's a push.

[ErictheEnt]

Thank you, this quite helps.

Its not set in either's argument, but its a response, that is what I needed. I run an online game and there are two characters at a club. One is trying to kill the other. Character A (who is the character that is the prey), is running for his life and hopes for the bouncer to stop Character B (the hunter) so he can get in his car and get away.

From your description, the prey is going to be stopped and the hunter is going to catch him.

What happens from there is beyond me.

Eric

[ErictheEnt]

Okay, say both men have been stopped. The man who was initially running away cries to the bouncer that the big guy had been following and harassing him.

To what extent are they supposed to get involved? Are they going to do anything more than just throw both men out? Or just the one who has been accused of harassment. Would authorities or anything be called?

P.S. The guy claiming he was harassed has a completely convincing face that he is scared to death of this man.

Any input? I can't thank you enough for the help.

Eric

[ErictheEnt]

The scared guy simply requests that the other man be restrained long enough for him to leave comfortably without being followed.

Are the bouncers likely going to hold him back? What are they going to do?

Eric

[Bart-Man]

Hindsight is 20/20. Plain and simple.

I can (and I would argue that most would) say that it's easy to figure on what to do in this situation only after the fact and not during. The story definitely has two immediate, plausible plots that unfold and both would require some thought that would certainly outlast the event as it unfolded.

Given this opportunity, allow me to try to ascertain what may have happened...(and I should note that one of the biggest assets I feel I have gained in this line of work is the ability and motivation to always re-think events in my head after they happen and always come up with what would have been the best solution to handle it so that when something similar happens in the future I would be better able to confront it).

Anyway, the guy says that someone stole his wallet and is now giving chase to him and he runs away (not seeking protection from the staff). Red flag. If someone steals a wallet, the usual course is to disappear with the bounty, not confront the victim further, especially in a way that attracts attention of a well-proctored facility. Sounds like the first guy very well may have been the perpetrator in some way and concocted an "obvious" scenario as quick as he could to not only divert attention away from him, but onto a person who was the actual victim (of something, we know not what) that is seeking some sort of retribution on the guy.

OR...

The guy was telling the truth. Some dude stole his wallet and then was confronted by the victim, and then reversed the momentum onto him by threatening violence on the victim, who in turn flees.

I don't think many could concoct these two scenarios, much less how to effectively deal with them, in the matter of time it took to here those words uttered from the first guy.

So...

In the confusion, which was most likely the state for the situation of the door guys, they could have stopped BOTH individuals, kept them far apart and gotten the story. If either person declared the other a thief or any other serious crime (such as battery, aggravated assault, normal assault...even a verbal threat to cause bodily harm, and have the means to carry out that threat, is "assault”) then technically, either could place the other under citizen’s arrest. BUT, bear in mind that if the door hosts did not bear witness to this alleged crime, they CANNOT restrain the individual, or place them under citizen’s arrest, less they want to be arrested for false imprisonment of a person. They must have seen this to take any physical action.

As well, as employees of the club, technically they are not obligated to even hold the individual/s at all if they are not posing a threat to the "sanity of the club". Seeing as how both men were leaving, then this would be the case. They should inform the "victim" that he should contact the police to handle it outside of the club. He won't like that "security" are not restraining his attacker, but you know what...tough crap. This is a business.

Indeed, security is there for protection, though. If the chaser is pursuing the other man in such a way as to cause him physical harm, the door hosts could have restrained him on his way out and be legally covered by: 1.) The distress call of the alleged victim and 2.) The personal witnessing that the alleged attacker appeared a physical threat to the fleeing victim. But if that guy kept running into the sunset and the restrained individual was clearly upset he was getting away, man, I would immediately start to consider scenario one.

Look man, I hope this helps. Even considering everything I mentioned, which was based on what I know from classes in obtaining a guard card, the law, and many years experience in such matters, I find that the reaction that should be had in quick situations should usually be one of “reason”, as the law is pretty much based on this. Is it not “reasonable” to stop someone from hurting someone else? Is it not reasonable to not always trust just anyone? If you keep a reasonable approach to the many altercations to encounter, then, reasonably, you should be free of litigation.

[Bart-Man]

Just re-read. I see this was a hypothetical situation. My compliments. Creating these will help you when the time comes in any simialr scenarios.

[ErictheEnt]

Thank you for your help.

I have one more small note to throw in and let me know if it will effect the bouncer's decision.

And let me know if you were put in this exact situation, what you would do.

The guy that is running away initial, when stopped notes he just wants to leave, he doesn't want to press charges, just have the man detained while he leaves. Also, the guy looks absolutely scared out of his mind. Perhaps tears are even whelping up in his eyes and his face is flustered red.

Here are physical dimensions of the characters if this helps or even makes a difference:

BOUNCER #1:
6 feet 3 inches tall
230 pounds

BOUNCER #2:
6 feet 4 inches tall
240 pounds

GUY RUNNING AWAY:
5 feet 5 inches tall
230 pounds (kind of a short chubby guy)

Notes: Bouncers have seen him dancing around like a total geek all night. He's been trying to dance with girls the whole night and has been getting rejected left and right. He doesn't appear to be anything more than your typical average guy.

GUY CHASING HIM:
6 feet 1 inches tall
190 pounds

Notes: He just came in a few moments before, he walked through the club briefly and then the guy who was running away started to flee and ran to the door. Very little is there to note about this guy because he had only been there a few moments.

As an experienced bouncer, say in this situation, you had to make a heat of the moment decision, what would you do? If you HAD to make a decision on

1)
"Let the guy get to his car and leave"

OR

2)
Restrain the guy long enough to let the guy get to his car?

[David]

Don't take this wrong but, if you tried to play this game in our club, you will take your chances with our Security Personnel. They are a serious group of individuals just like the others in the rest of the clubs around the world. With all of the crazy things that are happening around us, the clubs and bars are not a good place for you and your group of thrill seekers to play. Your ground rules should eliminate our businesses and all others that would take your players actions as a threat.

I know that our Door staff is very professional and are trained to the nines. They would not take this type of action as a game and some one would probably get hurt in the process of running the game.

Let's say that the chasee is confronted by the chaser inside of the club. A few threatening gestures and obvious moves are made by both of them. Our people will react like they are trained and defuse the situation.

What if there is a Law Enforcement Officer on the premises and he/she see this and pulls their hidden service weapon (it is illegal to carry any firearms into an establishment that serves alcohol, no matter who you are. The only exception is when the officer identifies him/herself as such and enters to perform their duties). You did say that the chaser is trying to KILL the chasee right? This, in it self, is going to create suspicion.

IF this did happen in our club, the standard Operating Procedure for these types of situations states the following (this is an excerpt from the manual).

* If two or more individuals are involved in any type of threatening situation while on the Club property, all individuals involved will be separated and questioned as to the nature of the problem. The first Doorman on the scene will become the Incident Commander (IC) and will lead the investigation. The IC will decide if the threat or situation warrants Law Enforcement attention and will proceed with such action when needed. By law, we are allowed to detain the suspects until the proper authorities arrive and take control of the situation. All individuals involved, no matter what their involvement, will be escorted off of the property and refused entry for that week. More serious offenders will be banned from the Club and all of it's events from that day forward.

You see, we take this type of thing very serious and don't appreciated someone messing with our Chi.

I don't mean to rain on your game, but please take others under consideration before you play.

[ErictheEnt]

Mr. David,

This isn't a game I'm talking about playing in real life. Its an online roleplaying game. The chaser is actually trying to kill the guy running away and the guy is scared to death and the CHARACTER in the Dungeons and Dragons like game is trying to get away. I'm trying to get an honest opinion if he can get away. Because if he can't, I have to end this players game and I need to make sure I'm sure before I kill a character.

Trust me, I'd never try any games like that in real life, its simply a hypothetical roleplaying (me seeking knowledge) type of question.

I appreciate everyone's input into answer my question(s).

Eric

[ErictheEnt]

And the guy has been playing his character for over a year, so its a big deal for me to kill his character.

Eric

[David]

Mr. Eric:

I guess that you will have to make that choice. Every club could handle it different.

[Bart-Man]

Role playing??? Hell, I wouldn't have wasted my time if I knew this was not serious.

[MiB ATL]

LOL Bart you kill me… Well of course I throw in my two cents and a “experienced bouncer”. ErictheEnt just a tip for you… The term “bouncer” has gone the way of the Dinosaurs… and is seen politically incorrect by most nightclub personnel these days…

But to answer your question... I would have IMMEDETLLY stopped the running man to ask him what his problem seem to be and why he was running in my club? Second I would have questioned the first and second man closely observing their facial expression to watch for guilt. If there was a question of a stolen wallet both individuals would have been detained and searched for there identification. Also if the problem seemed to still exist then I would then called the police or an off duty police officer working to come settle the situations and been done with it. Both men would have been escorted outside and not been allowed back in that evening. As far as your game, dont try this at home... :rolleyes:

[Bart-Man]

Um, well, you can't just detain and search people as you wish. This is only allowed for police officers. Again, you can only "detain" when you witness a felony, and this case would not apply.




The term “bouncer” has gone the way of the Dinosaurs… and is seen politically incorrect by most nightclub personnel these days…

Bigtime. And just a note...if you ever see me use it, it's only because it's an accepted term to most. I usually gauge who goes by this terminology by their posts.

[Club Security]

Hello Everyone,

Hey Bart, long time no talk.

I looked at this hypothetical situation and thought that it isn't that far fetched. Think about it folks....

It's a busy night, the line is long, the door hosts are checking ID's, cover charges are being collected, the floor guys are walking and moving through the crowds, the other staff members are hustling drinks around and all of a sudden, out of the blue....

A lone guy, who has been dancing around like a geek, comes running through the club and when he gets close to the door he starts yelling help, help. As he gets to the door, REMEMBER, he's running and has planned to yell at the right time to get the door hosts to look for the second guy, he pushes past anyone entering and is gone up the street!

The second guy, I think he was described as "African" (terrible description), is now noticed running towards the door. And, just like the retaliation penalties in football, the second guy is stopped by the door hosts and talked to. OR the door hosts try to stop the second guy but with the people in the line, the crowd and the fact that he was running too, he might make it through the hosts and continue off up the street after the first guy.

I think the imaginary first guy gets away and the second guy is briefly detained and then allowed to take off too.

Just my imaginary take on it.

As for a couple of other points brought up...

First, cops, on or off duty, can carry their weapon anytime and anywhere. Every state has the same codes that allow it. A licensed establishment can have a strict policy prohibiting off duty officers from carrying their weapon in the venue but every state allows it.

Second, anyone can detain another person for a lawful reason, felony or misdemeanor. Nearly every state has a version of Citizen's Arrest and most stores that use Loss Prevention Agents are acting under this power. The issue that can arise is when the detention is done illegally and that detention turns into a crime such as kidnapping or false imprisonment. This type of unlawful detention happens in domestic violence alot. Remember, if you're security in the venue and someone comes and says; "Hey, that guy in the blue jacket just hit me in the eye", the door host can legally detain the possible suspect FOR the possible victim for that misdemeanor assault.

Good Luck and Be Safe,

Robert
www.nightclubsecurity.com

[Bart-Man]

Hey, Rob. Hey, Dave. Hey, MIB. Jeez, how long have we been reconnecting through this site over the years?

Anywayhoo, I am not even about to debate someone in law who actually worked/works in law enforcement. As many times as I have made attempts at understanding and exercising such laws myself (as the aggressive nature of this business sometimes lends itself to) I have been given by the "po-po" a legion of legal-variety when it comes to laws dealing with citizens arrest, assault, battery, assault and battery, misdemeanor assault, terrorist threat (which gathered a whole new meaning after you know when), etc. And Rob, you always gave me the impression you knew what the heck you were talking about in this realm. Although you are strikingly young looking, I believe it was your vast experience that fortified that sentiment.

To crystallize, when I mentioned that you can't just detain someone, I intended that you can't do that unless you are legally covered by your actions. Of course you can do it. Anyone can do it; just as they can willingly fling their poop at the coktail waitress. But you need to be sure that your actions do not warrant punishment by law (or, as in the later example, punishment by angry bouncers - and I believe you would suffer the wrath of both here.)

You know, I just re-read the original thread and yes, the guy did refer to the alleged perp as an "African" who "doesn't look nice". That's just overwhelmingly un-pc and, I hope, it was unintended to insinuate exactly what it did.

[Michael Black]

I changed "African" man to a "second"man. Race really is not relevant here. It distracts solid answers that should focus on the problematic situation and not the color of their skin or nationality. I am sure that in certain locations, an African-american male chasing what I presume would be a white male (once again, could be asian, hispanic, or purple), it would have some affect on their narrow-minded decision, but it really shouldn't matter here in your question. Spare the debate that yes, there are Africans that are white - South Africa for instance. Almost all blacks will take this to mean a black man and they are the ones I refer to who will take the most offense. The fact that you use it in a stereotypical criminal situation only adds to the potential hurtful remarks. This isn't about being politically correct as I often think people have taken some pc situations way too far in recent years. It's about doing the right thing.

Try not to offend anyone in the future on this forum please, thanks.

I think you owe any black NC&B forum members/readers an apology here.

I see now the thread was started in November 2002. Since it was an old thread brought back to life, I will apologize on his behalf to our black readers. We do not tolerate racism and other negativity on this forum.

-Mike