Free water for dancers

[Andrew]

Spotted in a Sydney daily tabloid (Nov 22, 2002):

All licensed venues would be forced to provide patrons with chilled water for free or a nominal charge under news laws unvieled yesterday.

The move follows news nightclubs removed taps to force patrons to buy bottled water at inflated prices. This has been happening mainly at dance venues where water was in demand.

The State Gaming and Racing Minister said that removing taps posed a health hazard.

A licencee who failed to provide cheap adequate water would face a penalty and cancellation or suspension of their licence.

[end]

[Bart-Man]

We supply an "atmosphere"; a social climate that by no means is FREE for us to create. Anyone who argues that they should not have to pay for water is being plain obtuse and inconsiderate to the theory of good business as a whole. “We get it for free at restaurants!”. No you don’t, you’re buying food, aren’t you? And now you expect to come into an establishment that is paying $500/night+ to a DJ, and who has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on lighting and sound, atmosphere and interior design, labor, licensing, etc, etc, etc. and not pay a dime? Puhleease!

Nonetheless, to charge excessively for a product that is generally free to the entire world seems a bit sour.

Yet again, here we are deciding on black and white...honestly, is there never a gray area? The gray area I would suggest is very simple if anyone has not yet figured it out. Charge for bottled water (it's not free to the club and is definitely a "libation" that is desired by the clientele), but make it reasonably priced. The mark up should be consistent with the profit margin on, say, a bottle of beer.

I figure that would put a cheapo bottle of H20 at about a buck to 2 bucks (depending on the club and expected clientele). Who would complain? I'll bet this only became an issue when operators began charging $5.00 for a stupid little bottle of water you could buy for a quarter at the supermarket. Now look at 'em. Now they have to give it away for free, in cups they pay for! .

Anyway, my suggestion to them since now they have to supply the water, is to set a large cooler with a spout on the bar and have cups available so that patrons don't waste the bartender's time and can still make some money by selling drinks.

When a business is based primarily on distributing drinks and atmosphere, I don’t believe it should be judged as one that makes its money elsewhere. Water should be charged for at clubs if nothing else is purchased.

[David]

If you are seeing a growing number of Water consumers, there are other questions that need to be asked.

If someone enters our club with a bottle of water of anything that can hold water or liquid, they are required to leave it at the door. If you want water, we do sell it. I agree with Bart. We are in this business to make money. Not to give things away. To rape a customer on any item that we sell is inexcusable. You are allowed to make a decent profit on all of your products, even water.

The thing that worries me is that your law makers aren't aware of some of the reasons why these people are consuming water and not alcohol. A number of Club Drugs that are on the scene cause insatiable thirst. The drug Ecstasy(X), for example, causes you to dance and move around feverously. Thus raising your bodies core temp and requiring you to drink more fluids. The fluid of choice for X users is water. If our Bartenders are giving someone an unusual amount of water, they alert the Door staff. The Door staff will then watch the individual(s) and make a decision on their actions. This could warrant the individual being asked to leave. We try our hardest to keep drugs out of the Club. But, as you know, it is almost impossible.

The use Club Drugs, especially Ecstasy, in Nightclubs might be an effective stance that the opponents should take to help defeat this legislation.

[Andrew]

What I would like to see more of are Sports Drinks.

These drinks (like Gatorade or Powerade) contain vital electrolytes that stop cramping and are much more useful than water. They also provide energy via sugars.

The extra cost is worth it and it is not just plain old water, so there is less chance the public (rightly or wrongly) will feel slighted.

[Bart-Man]

Earbal teas and the like (such as Arizona), from what I saw, started to make the scene a few years back, but I don't see them any more. Anyone else?

Just to add. If I saw a cooler that said "Tap water" on it, and had the choice of that OR a fair-priced bottled of water, I'd go the bottle and, I think, be in good company.

[Russell]

Sports drinks are definitely the way to go to supplement the water sales.

in boston standard pricing seems to be:
3$ water
6$ Red Bull

dont really see any other sports drinks commonplace.

[steffen]

I don't think that I'd call Red Bull a "Sport Drink". I think it'd be considered an "Energy Drink". BIG difference.

[Andrew]

I agree..they are not sports drinks but are still very popular.

We pay about $AUD 7.50 for an energy drink (Red Bull) and $AUD 4.00 for a sports drink (PowerAde).

My favorite club does a Red-Bull and spirits promotion for the same price as a Red-Bull, by the way.

But they don't serve Sports drinks ... I don't get too upset because MY club definately will.:p

[Baudtender]

If it's irritating you so much, put in a water fountain.

Make sure to train your bartenders to give them a really sour
face when pointing the fountain out to them. Tell the customers
no way are you giving them free glassware - what with the
labor and chemical cost of washing them, not to mention the
breakage/theft factor. (Not to mention the tip factor, which the
bartenders have absolutely no ulterior motive when it comes to
complaining to their owner/managers about these "pesks.")

And then sit back and enjoy the sound of crickets chirping in your
club - you just figured out how to get rid of those pesky chicks
while the clubs down the street are trying to give them liquor,
wine, malt bevs, frozen drinks and beer for free on Ladies Night.
Think of the money you saved! All owners love to save money!

If you like that idea, try this one - don't let anyone park in your
lot unless their car is less than 3 years old - empty parking lots
attract lots of big-spending rich customers with expensive
cars, 'cause they're terrified of them getting hit, eh?

O.K., so I'm being a bit sarcastic. All the same, food for thought.

Baudtender

[Bart-Man]

Yes, but your sarcasm seems to undermine the undeniably ethical sentiments given by those who see this as a business, not a free joy ride.

Entertainment is not free. Plain and simple. Just because some have found a way to exploit nightclubs does not mean that the people who work so hard to make a profit from this, and give excellent service to their patrons, should suffer.

I have seen that there is a medium ground here. Supply water, but not at an inflated price. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Baudtender]

Bart-Man wrote:
> Yes, but your sarcasm seems to undermine the undeniably
> ethical sentiments given by those who see this as a business,
> not a free joy ride.

The ethicality of the debate disinterests me - my contention is
that certain actions are just bad business. The real shame is that
this had to be made a law.

> Entertainment is not free. Plain and simple.

That's why nightclubs have cover charges, right? Right or
wrong, the customer expects something for the money they
pay up front.

> Just because some have found a way to exploit nightclubs does
> not mean that the people who work so hard to make a profit
> from this, and give excellent service to their patrons, should
> suffer.

I don't see how giving a glass of water to someone seriously cuts
into a server's or the business's profits. I can see how a pissed
off customer who got hassled over a glass of water and leaves
with their friends (who are buying profitable items) lightens
everyones' pockets. If there are so many water drinkers taking
up the bartenders' time that they can't sell products, then I
would suggest that you're looking at a symptom of a much
greater problem. Some bartenders like to complain, but it's
the owner/manager's job to make sure that the big picture isn't
obscured by the details. Should we allow our bartenders to
throw customers out because they stiffed them on the tip on
their last visit?

But my real point here is that we should be giving excellent
service to our patrons because we're in a service industry - it's
what we do. If all of our services were directly profit motivated,
we couldn't justify paying the labor to keep our bathrooms clean
and stocked. That water drinker may be back next week with
a crowd of deep-pocket friends. There's a reason it's called the
"hospitality industry."

> I have seen that there is a medium ground here. Supply water,
> but not at an inflated price.

Well, first, do you mean "supply" or "sell"? Secondly, patrons
probably have a whole different idea of what an inflated price is
for tap water (pretty much anything over zero) than the owner -
they don't give a hoot about labor, glass theft and breakage,
or how much it costs to heat up the air they're breathing. If we
don't do a good job of SELLING them a product, that's hardly
their fault. You catch my point here? How silly is it to spend
thousands of dollars and man-hours devising ruses and
attractions to get butts in the barstools, and then shoot
ourselves in the foot over pennies.

Train your bartenders to sell your products - if I'm behind the
bar and someone asks for water, I say (with a smile) "Perrier,
Evian, or rot-gut rusty-pipe city water?" If someone wants
to repeat that last one back to me, by God, I'll give it to them,
but the vast majority will go with the easy and appealing choices.

> That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

That's your perogative, but I really, really want the clubs down
the street to nickle and dime their patrons. Irritate the hell out
of them and then send 'em my way.

Now, if I can only convince them how profitable pay toilets are...

Baudtender

[happybaboon]

Of course supplying people with free water is going to cut into your profits - bars at good clubs get crowded as it is, with people spending money on alcoholic beverages. People wanting free water take up valuable staff time, and will seriously slow down the process of people wanting to buy drinks purchasing them.

Having said that, this problem is eliminated if water is sold at a reasonable price at the bar, which is just sensible.

The club is paying to maintain the atmosphere - all those lights, expensive sound systems and good staff cost money, not to mention insurance, rent and the hundreds of other costs - The way you pay the club back for this atmosphere is by buying their alcohol.

...So you're saying that you should still give away free glasses of water from the bar?

As has been mentionned, by far the best middle ground is to sell reasonably priced water from the bar (make a profit on it, but don't totally screw people - it's only water).

One point I will make, if someone buys a drink and wants a glass of water with it, or if you know they've been buying a lot, then you should supply a glass of water to them for free - People who drink a glass of water every few other drinks aren't going to get drunk anywhere near as quickly as they would otherwise - it'll be safer for them, and they'll spend more time in your establishment.

[Bart-Man]

Yes, good point, HB!

Baudtender:

Oh, brother, here we go….

The ethicality of this debate WAS my issue. I did not intend on it to be mocked by sophomoric, flippant commentary. When you write something like, “If it is irritating you so much…” coupled with smart-aleck remarks seemingly meant to belittle my experienced opinion, well, how do you think I would take it?

Let’s clear the air, shall we:

Not once did I ever announce how “irritated” I was. But thanks for fabricating my sentiments as fodder for your strong and witty retort.

Look, let us settle this as a difference of opinion. I believe that we bear no obligation to our public other than providing a safe and fun atmosphere. When serving H2o cuts into sales with disregard to what we already provide, (i.e., the security personnel payroll, liability insurance, cameras, radios, training, etc), then I feel it’s time to reconsider our way. You believe it’s bad business. Fine. I happen to believe bad business is giving away to the public more than what is expected from you. If that ever happens to put me in a position where I am losing sales because another club is offering “free water”, well, I will definitely give them free water. But I have to be honest, if I am losing a crowd to free water, then man, I think I had better look at what kind of club I am running.

You must understand that, no, not all clubs have a cover charge. They would, but many times there are other factors preventing them to do so (a cut-throat area, low income demo, or even just tradition). Often, you can expect to see plenty of patrons (although I can’t actually call them that because it would imply they were paying for something) doing nothing more than taking up dance floor space, server time, cost of goods and other resources. I think they should have to put just a little, not much as I have made abundantly clear, out of pocket for all that we provide. This is a business after all.

Please refer to your nearest dictionary under the word, “business”. Though I cannot recite this definition word for word, I am sure there is something in there that implies money being handed from one to another for a good or service. Based on the “free” service and hospitality principles you so decorate in this topic, tell me what part of this marriage is missing by giving away not only free product, but also free atmosphere??? Lets be real, we’re not talking about a “glass of water” cutting into a server’s time. In some cases, we’re talking about a few hundred glasses of water on a volume night! Do not downplay this to a single glass, please.

You say: "Train your bartenders to sell your products - if I'm behind the bar and someone asks for water, I say (with a smile) "Perrier, Evian, or rot-gut rusty-pipe city water?" "

“Rusty-pipe city water please. I’m just here for the music”. Many don’t give a rat’s ass, which is why this whole charging excessively got started. And now you’ve wasted more time just by asking them this question, which undoubtedly would result in a, “What?”, then another run-off, up selling question from the bartender, only leading to further frustration since it is entirely possible this person is opting on the rusty water anyway. I don’t want to sound like a smart-ass, nor am I trying to be when I say this, but perhaps this type of nightclub is one you are unfamiliar with.

I said, "I have seen that there is a medium ground here. Supply water, but not at an inflated price".

I think it was quite CLEAR that I meant, “sell” (as “inflated price” should have suggested). Also, I think it is also clear that we are referring to selling only bottled water, not tap water. Selling tap water is a different ball game altogether. I have read the posts over and over and don’t see where anyone mentioned that.

You: "Now, if I can only convince them how profitable pay toilets are..."

More sarcasm, undoubtedly. I see you like to change the subject a lot. “Pay toilets” were never mentioned. Again, you attempt to broaden your stance by comparing a perfectly legit form of business with a truly despicable practice that is rarely seen.

As well, if I lose my patronage due to something I am doing wrong, it’s not good business. But if I keep prices at a cap that my audience is willing to pay, even if under a penny, then I can sleep at night noooo problem.

[Baudtender]

Bart-Man wrote:

> Oh, brother, here we go….

> The ethicality of this debate WAS my issue. I did not intend on > it to be mocked by sophomoric, flippant commentary. When you > write something like, “If it is irritating you so much…” coupled
> with smart-aleck remarks seemingly meant to belittle my
> experienced opinion, well, how do you think I would take it?
>
> Let’s clear the air, shall we:
>
> Not once did I ever announce how “irritated” I was. But thanks
> for fabricating my sentiments as fodder for your strong and
> witty retort.

Well, I can see that I've got you worked up. In person, this would
be where I'd buy you a pint and say "Now settle down and lets
find the common ground in what we're both saying." Well, O.K.,
I'd buy you a bottle of water if that's what you preferred (ducking
and running now.) My sarcasm isn't venemous - it's meant to
good-natured and I regret that didn't come across.

Dammit, Bart-Man, people expecting something for nothing, and
expecting you to pay for their pleasure while they offer nothing
in return DOES irritate you, now admit it for crying out loud. That
neither makes you a bad person nor a bad businessman.

> Look, let us settle this as a difference of opinion. I believe that > we bear no obligation to our public other than providing a safe > and fun atmosphere.

Well, you have a right to your opinion, but public eating and
drinking establishments in the U.S, Australia (the source of the
original article) and most other developed countries have a great
many more obligations by law and license. Whether or not you
agree with the laws isn't a legal debate, but an ethical one, and
that's where my involvement with this conversation ends. My
interest lies in good service versus bad - and that's a topic that
lies entirely outside of the legal and ethical perimeters. Your
middle-ground solution is moot if the law says you have to
provide free water. Let's keep our eyes on how the water should
be delivered.

> When serving H2o cuts into sales with
> disregard to what we already provide, (i.e., the security
> personnel payroll, liability insurance, cameras, radios, training,
> etc), then I feel it’s time to reconsider our way. You believe it’s
> bad business. Fine. I happen to believe bad business is giving
> away to the public more than what is expected from you.

I wish I could convince you that giving [away] to the public more
than what is expected from you is precisely the definition of
great service, not bad business. Now, we can always find
extremes that invalidate any opinion of generality, and one
thing that I did say from the start is that if the free water drinkers
are to the point that they are irritating you (and by that I meant
they are irritating you in the business sense,) put in a water
fountain. How far apart is that from your suggestion that
you put a cooler of water on a table with some cups? Well,
except that it's more difficult for some sleaze to tamper with the
water that comes out of a fountain, but that's a topic for a
different discussion.

My sarcasm was not in the suggestion of how to deliver them
free water without tying up your servers, but in pointing out
what I think is the wrong way to go about it, which I've seen
time and again in my own 20 years of experience in this
business. I think a "designated drivers get free soft drinks"
program is very responsible and attractive to customers as well,
but I see nothing wrong with using special wrist bands and
setting up a side table near a security station with some jugs
of water, coffee, iced tea, pepsi/7-up, etc. Obviously, you aren't
making money off the driver, but from the paying customers they
are delivering to your business free of charge. I can grok this.

I'm fairly certain that we're all going to agree that there's a
fundamental difference between a regular paying customer that
asks for a glass of water and a person whose relationship with
your business is entirely and always parasitic, right? There's no
shame in having a manager pull a parasite aside and respectfully
explain that the nature of a bargain is that both sides benefit.

I never, never, never said that a business owner is ethically
or legally obligated to suffer parasites, and if it came out that
way, then I must not have been explaining myself properly - I
sure as hell don't tolerate them in my business any more than I
would allow someone to bring in a bundle of roses and sell them
to my crowd without cutting me in on the profits. This is what I
see is the major area of our disagreement, which I don't find
to be a disagreement at all - I'll gladly confess to being
sophomoric (I gladly hang onto every last shred of immaturity
I can muster,) but not sophism.

But, clearly, if a business is overrun by 100's of parasites and
there's no cover charge to offset their damage, things have
gotten way out of control - who the hell's in charge there? A
knee-jerk fix to this problem can run out the good with the bad.

I'm pointing out here that a water drinker (just like a designated
driver or ladies night woman) may not being putting money into
your pocket directly, but indirectly.

Perhaps they're a pivotal member of a big-spender group. Maybe
they get all their waters from the bartender, but all of their
double Jack And Cokes from a cocktail server out on the floor.
Maybe (shudder) they're a liquor board agent or a reviewer for
the local press whom you don't want to piss off. What I'm trying
to say here is that the extremes run in both directions.

A major potential problem here is who decides who the
parasites are. I don't want to give my servers the ammunition
to run off whom they deem to be wasting their time any more
than I allow them to give bad service or attitude to tightwad
tippers. I have my interests, and the servers have theirs.
My feelings here are that servers should alert management
to repetitive water drinkers, and that management should move
slowly while determining if that person brings anything profitable
to the table that the servers aren't seeing. It might be several
nights of observation before I move.

The "food for thought" in my original post was that if you alienate
otherwise good customers with a sense of nickle and diming
them, or "second class citizen" status, you are self-defeating.
Good customers deserve good service and that can't or shouldn't
always be measured in money changing hands on every
movement. If we're not bound by law, and if I understand you
correctly, you say take the middle ground and only sell water, but
at a reasonable price. I say take the high ground and offer both
free and sold water, but deal with the abusive "customers"
directly.

I'm not saying that YOU gouge your customers, or alienate them
or commit any other of the sins I discuss - there's no reason to
take any of this personally as I doubt I've even been in your
business. So I'm taking in general terms and warnings - let me
make that clear. The Coyote Ugly movie method of dealing with
a water order makes about as much sense in the real world to
me as the Cocktail movie did for flair bartending (let's see how
much liquor we can spill.)

I understand the nature of this beast - I count my own beans
endlessly and am always looking for ways to cut expenses and
raise revenues. I do see other club owners going to extremes
with silly policies (and I've seen myself doing it as I learned the
ropes) that cost them a lot more than all of the expenses you
can attribute to a glass of water going over a bar to a good
customer (and the quantity involved here just isn't an issue
because the service rendered is always repaid by profit from
good customers.) Complacency is a business killer. If we're
going to survive, we should be fighting tooth and nail not just
to attract good customers, but to keep them. I don't ever want
a regular saying to me, "Look buddy, I ain't paying $1.50 for
a bottle of stupid water when you've got it coming out of your
tap for free." No, they don't see the "nut" expenses, but that
isn't the issue. They're just as pissed as if you had put in a
pay toilet, because they're feeling unfairly gouged. At that
point, no matter who's right and who's wrong, the business
will always lose.

The truth is, very few customers tell you why they don't come
back, they just don't. I don't want this silly issue to cost me a
single good customer. If they ask for a glass of water and I
say "Sure, but our tap water is pretty crappy here - can I get
you a chilled bottle of Geyser Springs?" and they still opt for
the tap, I damned sure give it to them with a smile. If you're
losing customers due to a water policy, you probably won't
know it. They're not going to tell their friends not to go to your
establishment because of a water issue. They're just going to
say, "I don't care for that joint, let's go somewhere else." And
this being a competitive business, I just love it when the club
down the street makes this mistake, because if the customer
isn't a parasite, I'm going to take real good care of them.

Did I explain my stance better this time? I hope so, because
I'm all worn out on the subject.

Baudtender

[Bart-Man]

Yeah, big time!

You know, a day ago I was not sure to love you or hate you. Not being much of the hate kind of guy, I figured that your well delivered, fortified, and obviously experienced position was definitely worth a second look. What I was most impressed with is that such a simple subject was considered so fluently. Despite whatever the end, or how it may have conflicted or even resembled my own, the topic itself was given immense thought and consideration. And I am sure, given the person to whom I speak, that the specific audience and atmosphere you work in was applied to the concept. Your last message did clarify much.

If your reply were no more than a few sentences, well, I'd bet we'd be in a simple net-rage-athon. I'm glad to see such an astute member on the board and look forward to your posts in the future.

And yes, sometimes with the limited medium we share, void of live personal expression and emotion ("par for the course" for nightclub operators an old friend once told me) our messages can often be a bit skewed in a simple forum like the one we share.

Truly, your insights can be quite synonymous to mine at times. Many ideas you share invoke the same line of thought as my own.

"Worn out on the subject"...definitely. Still, if ever there is a question about water in the club, surely there are quite a few valid points to be considered here on the site, which is why it exists. Good work my friend.

[happybaboon]

I like the idea of free soft drinks for designated drivers -

Although I think it would be far better to operate it from the bar...

A little table beside your security?... Well, it just kinda screams 'Old lady tea-party/Eight year olds birthday' at you... Or at me... Anyway - I think far better to operate it through the bar, so the designated drivers can socialiase normally.

[David]

I thought that I would set back and see how this thread panned out. Isn't this a great country? Free speech and all.

I love it when we get these heated and well meant discussions. It proves that everyone has an opinion and is capable of expressing it.

Keep up the great posting, but keep it clean.

Thanks

[Bart-Man]

Dude, what are you ever referring to? You heard the man. He's buying me a beer!

[steffen]

I personally was looking for a fight.... I'm kinda disappointed...:D :D

[Bart-Man]

Yeah, you must be one of those guys in the audience who goes, "OOOooooh, DAMN!"...."OOOOOooooh, SNAP!"

If only you threw a couple of those in in the misdt of this debate, we'd have made this one heated topic!

...troublemaker